MMA Fighting reports that the overnight ratings for Saturday’s UFC on Fox 12 drew an average of 2.02 million viewers in overnight ratings. According to Television By Numbers, it tied with NBC for highest rated show on network television in its time slot.
UPDATED 07/28/14:
"UFC on Fox 12" gets 1.6 overnight rating for card featuring Lawler-Brown. Flat compared to card on Fox in April and card last July
— Austin Karp (@AustinKarp) July 28, 2014
UFC on Fox 12 scored an 0.8 in the 18-49 demo. Although tied with NBC, it had more viewers.
The ratings only count for the 5:00pm-7:00pm (8-10pm) time slot and does not account for the 30 minute overrun when the bulk of the main event took place. Its anticipated that the rating should go up with the inclusion of the additional time.
UFC on Fox 1: 5.7 million
UFC on Fox 2: 4.57 million
UFC on Fox 3: 2.25 million
UFC on Fox 4: 2.36 million
UFC on Fox 5: 3.41 million
UFC on Fox 6: 4.22 million
UFC on Fox 7: 3.3 million
UFC on Fox 8: 2.38 million
UFC on Fox 9: 2.9 million
UFC on Fox 10: 3.22 million
UFC on Fox 11: 1.98 million
UFC on Fox 12: 2.02 million
Payout Perspective:
The last two summer events were less than stellar and the ratings reflected this with UFC on Fox 4 (Vera vs. Rua) and UFC on Fox 8 (Mighty Mouse vs. Moraga) doing 2.36 million and 2.38 million respectively. Saturday’s event had a little more interest with a fight between two fan-friendly fighters. Before we scrutinize the ratings, we should probably wait for the overrun numbers as UFC on Fox 4 and 8 ratings include the overruns. At this point, it’s unfair to critique the show since we may see it surpass the ratings of the last two summers.
john_frederickson says
I say the 2.02M viewers get bumped up to about 3M when the overnight numbers come in… that would be a HUGE bump up…
Even 3M viewers isn’t that great of a number…
I thought UFC on Fox would be getting WWE numbers as a baseline AT LEAST!!
How much would the next UFC on Fox deal be worth ?
$90M per year for 3.2M viewers a show..
WWE only got $150M per year for 6-7M viewers…
UFC seems a bit overpriced at $90M… How much worse will the
Fox cards get if UFC get less money… I say Fox has all of the leverage in
the next deal. UFC should be happy FOX hasn’t dropped from the
deal yet.
jesse says
Who gives a fuck about WWE? The UFC is a sport, WWE is a tv show. Why not talk about New Girl or something? Also the Fox president spoke about how happy they are with the UFC and NASCAR not one month ago but then again John Frederickson would know more about that than the FOX president smh.
Saldathief says
Yea the Fox president is going to say something bad publicly in front of all their sponsors and future sponsors, not likely. PR and appearance is what guides the machine.
john_frederickson says
I don’t think the UFC is going anywhere.. They’re not going bankrupt or going disappear… But man do the numbers suck… UFC keeps hitting a new lows:
from PPV numbers, UFC 174 (90,000 buys) , Lowest in Modern ERA!
to TUF ratings, (366,000 viewer) Lowest in the history of the SHOW!
to UFC on Fox Cards 2M to 2.5M viewers the last 5 shows!!
john_frederickson says
Dana says TUF isn’t is trouble and they’re #1 on the FS1 and in the key demographic..
I call BS on that… Is that what they were going for when they left Spike ?
#1 on a third rate sports channel…
No show should be doing less than 150,000 PPV buys right now..
TUF should be at least getting 2M viewers and maintaining what they were
doing on SPIKE… its not FS1’s fault either.. TUF didn’t perform on FX and got demoted to FS1.
TUF is dead.. The PPV business is Dead.. All the fighters are injured.. All the young fighters still need to be developed.. all BS for sh*ty numbers..
D says
More Sal bullshit.
Hey idiot, I guarantee you they have an opt out or buy out clause in their somewhere, yet they aren’t using it.
Go back to huffing Arum’s balls you homo.
D says
John Frederickson, you are an idiot.
They did a ppv 7 months ago that did over a million ppv buys. Between mma and boxing that was the last show to register over a million buys. It 2013 they did over 6 million ppv buys. Yeah, talk about hitting new lows.
You are also comparing Saturday Night tv ratings to Monday night wwe or whatever other day ratings. Saturday night events do not register big numbers for anything. Most people are out.
Also, you say FOX has the leverage in the next deal? The next deal won’t come around until what 2019? 2 years into this you are using that as a case closed analysis of the ratings? Not to mention their ratings are good on FS1 compared to the rest of FS1 that is bombing royally.
Moron.
D says
Ladies and gentleman, we have a new moronic troll gracing us-whom is most likely one of the old ones just using a different alias. John Frederickson everyone.
Everyone greet this new jackass.
john_frederickson says
WWE is pulling 4M viewers a week on Friday nights… Friday Nights is Dana White’s so called “death time slot” that killed TUF.. Dana begged to get out of it…
Who cares if UFC did 1M+ buys with Silva vs Weidman 2… There was a time when NO UFC PPV would get less than 300,000 buys… Now the floor has become 150,000 buys… UFC 174 has set the bar at 90,000..
The next FOX deal is at the end of 2018.. They should start negotiating before that…
The UFC is 75% into year 3 of the current deal…. one more UFC on Fox card in 2014…
I don’t see Dana White putting Jones vs Gus on Fox.
I don’t see Dana White putting Spider vs Diaz on Fox..
Moving forward, the Fox Cards are going to be the same quality as the last 8 Fox Cards..
The last 8 cards are averaging about 2.7M viewers..This is becoming the baseline… Moving forward, I expect the UFC to keep doing that number if not less… 2.7M or 3.0M viewers sucks…
FightBusiness says
These numbers will get bumped up to 2.5 million and will peak at a little higher. Regardless the numbers are far from Dana Whites prediction that MMA will be the biggest sport in the world. Its amazingly average in popularity. Over saturation has hurt him as well as low fighter pay. A fighter making 15 million a fight would add an air of legitamacy. 3 million a fight for the worlds toughest man is laughable.
wqewqeqw says
To put some perspective on the UFC on Fox Numbers and on exactly how few people are watching MMA:
RIZZOLI & ISLES on TNT does 5M viewers
The Last Ship on TNT does 4M viewers
Mountain Men on History Channel does 3.5M
Reruns of Family Guy on TBS at 11pm does 3.0 -3.5M viewers
Reruns of American Dad on TBS does 3.0M viewers
Reruns of Pawn Stars on History Chanel does 3.5M+ viewers
Reruns of PAWNOGRAPHY is doing 3M viewers on CABLE!
Hell’s Kitchen does 5.5M viewers on Fox
The Millers on CBS does 5.5M viewers
Welcome to Sweden on ABC does 3M viewers
Last Comic Standing does 3.2M viewers
Elementary on CBS is doing 3.5M viewers
Hawaii Five O is doing 5.5M viewers on CBS..
UFC on FOX is doing WWE Total Divas numbers…
POINT: VERY VERY VERY Few people are watching UFC/MMA..
LeonThePro says
I would agree the UFC is not as popular as we had hoped for 3 or 4 years ago. In the new deal, I wouldn’t be surprised if they got bumped off of FOX and solely relegated to FS1.
D says
“Who cares if UFC did 1M+ buys with Silva vs Weidman 2”
Yeah, why would that matter, I mean it isn’t as if it was a ufc event that happened recently. More cherry picking.
Yes, there was a time when the ufc would do 300k per ppv, now it is lower, but the bigger fights can still sell in the million range and they have tons of free tv events. Plus there have been a ton of injuries and their two biggest stars are done.
This just goes to show you the delusions I’m dealing with here:
My quote:
“The next deal won’t come around until what 2019?”
Your attempt at contradicting me:
“The next FOX deal is at the end of 2018.. They should start negotiating before that…”
So in other words, it’s not black, it is the opposite of white. Haha.
There is also a number of more events on FS1 lined up for the rest of 2014. More cherry picking.
Moving forward, you are still a moron.
D says
Fightbusiness spewing more of his moronic nonsense.
D says
wqewqeqw aka, topps/sampson/pink pig/james/etc etc etc-
You are comparing different time slots idiot.
Go back to shitting in your pants.
D says
Leon, so why don’t they bump them off of FOX? The numbers you guys claim are dismal. Of course, you never acknowledge these are Saturday night events, not Thursday.
wqewqeqw says
” Leon, so why don’t they bump them off of FOX? The numbers you guys claim are dismal. ”
Fox is stuck in a contract with the UFC. Fox just needs to ride out the Deal at this point..
Makes ABOSLUTELY no sense for FOX to pay UFC $100M for 4 FS1 shows a year….. How much revenue could FOX get from that ? It would be a massive loss for FOX..
D says
Really? Because I’ve never heard of a tv contract that lengthy without a buy out clause, asshead.
Your last comment is 100% incoherent.
You smell like poop.
BrainSmasher says
Lol people comparing a sport to a sitcom. Half you people are so clueless about where the sport was and where it is going that it should be illegal for you to even have an opinion.
Do you guys know that Monday Night Football used to get huge ratings. So huge the rules network tv In Prime time. But eventually ratings dropped and they could no longer warrant a prime time network spot. So it was moved basically to cable. Was this a sign that the NFL was no longer popular or in decline? No, it was a number of factors including access to more football games each week. So Mondays game was no longer special.
The UFC has doubled the number of events over the last few years. They have doubled the roster and number of weight classes. They have increased the number of non US events each year. All while keeping ratings and buy rates at a respectable level. When most entities could not survive a drastic overhaul at one time like this. Not to mention while creating and growing their own network. How did the WWE network work out? Not so good so far and they are not making nearly as many changes to their sport as the UFC is. Only a fool would look at numbers and compare them to the UFC 6 years ago. It is clear to everyone this is an expected down time and it is clear to me the UFC has planned for it and it’s nothing unexpected. Which is why they are doing all their risky projects at the same time at this time. New fox network, woman’s division, small divisions, woman coaches, all woman TUF, global expansion, fight pass, etc. If this is the bottom of the barrel for the UFC with all this going on. Then the future is looking mighty bright for the UFC. These changes will eventually start to pay off. Knew fighters become known. New champs become big names. People like Mighty Mouse will not stay new and unknown for ever. The same for those smaller divisions. The same for the woman. Global expansion is creating more fans across the world. Infrastructure is being set up so fighters have better records and longer streaks. Soon it will be a thing of the past where a champs reign is almost over before fans even know who he is. Champs keep the belt for 2-3 fights on average. But it takes 5 or so before fans are sold and start to take notice. This is because guys got title shots with very few UFC fights. Because the depth in divisions now. We are seeing guys now have 7 wins and still not get a shot. Eventually guys will get their following going into title fights and not on their 3 rd title defense. So the UFC can finally take advantage of the stars they have for much more of their career. The sport is looking great and a lot of the problems the sport has had are starting to be fixed as things fall into place.
wqewqeqw says
“you never acknowledge these are Saturday night events, not Thursday.”
Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard… UFC holds all of their events on Sat… How is a Saturday night time slot an excuse for poor ratings ? Its always the time slot excuse… Friday night is bad slot for TUF.. Wednesday night is bad b/c its the middle of the week.. The time zone difference of the show hurts numbers… Sunday everyone has the next day… Monday the UFC is going up against NHL …blah..blah..blah…
Every other show is putting up numbers, no matter the time slot..no matter the channel..cable or broadcast, except UFC…
They need to put on better material or change their product…
wqewqeqw says
@briansmasher. I don’t think the UFC is goin anywhere.. I just think that they’re numbers completely suck
BrainSmasher says
wqe
That isn’t what the deal is. So stop being a clown. Fox isn’t paying 100m for 4 shows. They are paying 90 for those shows and TUF and every single UFC event on fs1 and fs2 and every other program which is about 90% of the programs on those networks. So they are getting 30+ events, TUF, PPV prelims, UFC tonight, unleashed, countdowns, UFC insider, and countless other shows.
Fox is getting a bargain and to lose the UFC would basically mean they are shutting down their sports network they have spent maybe millions on. Which would be stupid.
D says
Everything you say is the dumbest thing anyone’s ever heard. You compare apples to leprechauns.
You are comparing the best tv nights ratings to Saturday night events. Show me some comparable numbers to Saturday night idiot.
D says
wqewqeqw=john frederickson:
“I don’t think the UFC is going anywhere..”
” I don’t think the UFC is goin anywhere.. ”
2 different aliases, same idiot.
Yang says
Do you guys know that Monday Night Football used to get huge ratings. So huge the rules network tv In Prime time. But eventually ratings dropped and they could no longer warrant a prime time network spot. So it was moved basically to cable. Was this a sign that the NFL was no longer popular or in decline? No, it was a number of factors including access to more football games each week. So Mondays game was no longer special.
—
None of what you said above is true. You don’t know anything about what you are talking about.
Saldathief says
D keeps pissing up a tree and getting covered in his own urine bahahah how does it taste D???? A lot of good points here on both sides, too bad D has no clue about reality and is just wasting space on this site with ancient history and plagiarized google nonsense.
D says
Haha. Sal really hates it when he realizes he is dead wrong and is a stupid old fuck.
Go back to your boards mullet boy.
Citing sources is hardly plagiarism. Not to mention I’ve explained things about business from experience that you have no clue of, yet you claim I googled it. I guess that is your only pathetic attempt at an angle cause you knew you are an idiot that was proven wrong.
How’s uncle Bobby, you fat diabetic?
Saldathief says
D is so upset that the UFC is taking a huge huge shit and everyone over at zuffa is eating it. Worst first 2 quarters ever! bahahaha I can smell it from where I am.. You prove nothing, never have and never will google paid blogger who plagiarizes his info bahahahah. Try having your own thoughts Daaruk hows smelly India? bahahahaha its must suck there.
D says
Sal is so upset that Uncle Bobbi didn’t give him any love last night. He is a prag that doesn’t know shit about anything other than the delusions his mind manufactures. No one believes his bullshit assumptions which he claims are facts. He is stuck in the 80s when mullets and board breaking were in. Dude likes dudes.
BrainSmasher says
Yang, explain yourself or STFU! Are you saying MNF didn’t have low ratings when it was moved? That is a proven fact. It is also a fact the nfl is bigger tha. EVER and wasn’t experiencing any decline in popularity or revenue. So why would the ratings of that show decline as the product become stronger? It doesn’t matter why, fact is it did just as the UFC is doing right now. Comparing ratings when so much has cja yes and thinking it is an indicator of the standing of the sport is ignorant. Nothing will be that simple for you simpletons.
FightBusiness says
BrainSmasher your screen name should be mybrainwasfuckinsmashed Sure the NFl was taken off of network tv: after a 35 freakin year run! 30 of which produced massive ratings. Even on basic cable they got way more ratings than the UFC is getting.
D says
Fightbusiness don’t ever accuse anyone else of being an idiot. You are one of the biggest dummies on here and this place is loaded with them.
Rob says
All you have to do is look at numbers.
Hell’s kitchen last Sat (7/19) on FOX (8-10et) did a .3 rating, and 932,000 total viewers
MLB Sat (7/12) did a .4 rating and 1.91m viewers
By the way FOX pays MLB $300m per year for ratings that are consistently lower than any UFC show on FOX (avg. 2m) or FS1 (avg. 400k). I think they’re happy with a 1.0 rating and 2m viewers and winning the night. They haven’t won a Saturday in a while.
FightBusiness says
D- you are either in mourning over the loss of the UFC’s once rabbid fanbase or you are delusional over whats really going on. Either way dont sound so depressed your momma still loves you.
D says
Fightbusiness, you are beyond delusional. Think about it. You are so focused on the growth of mma, you troll a mma website. Those numbers you allege are poor, are not at all. If mma’s fanbase is gone, where is boxing’s? For 7 straight years mma has out drawn boxing in both ppv buys and revenue. They have a network tv deal that despite what the moronic trolls like yourself on here claim are failing, are actually doing well considering the time slot.
You compare apples to oranges with every one of your arguments. You have never once provided accurate stats for any numbers you provide. You typically screw up even numbers that are given on this website that take two seconds to look up.
God you are an idiot.
BrainSmasher says
Fight business. Apparently reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit. My point since you are to dense. MNF was taken off while the NFL was growing. Which is why you can’t always look at ratings and make a blanket statement as for a leagues success by a glance at ratings without the bigger picture. You under stand so far not wit? UFC ratings being lower than before while almost a complete restructuring of the sport.
Look at tv numbers from boxing when they do weekly events. They don’t do UFC numbers. What the UFC is doing under these circumstance is very impressive.
D says
18-49 demo the UFC was no.1 in its time slot Saturday night.
LeonThePro says
It feels like the UFC had a such a great start, and the momentum they once had slowly puttered away.
UFC on Fox 1: 5.7 million
UFC on Fox 2: 4.57 million
I know I know FOX 1 had only the single fight but still. To not be able to recapture a 4 or 5 MIL audience after 12 events and 3 years isn’t great. If these events are only shown 4 x a year they should have a special feel to them… and desired. The recent numbers aren’t indicating that:
UFC on Fox 11: 1.98 million
UFC on Fox 12: 2.02 million
D says
Topps is a sinking ship!!! Look at how desperate he is!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
FightBusiness says
mybrainwasfuckinsmashed- the NFL’s numbers were still strong on basic cable. Some nights they had 10 million people watching ESPN. The UFC’s number are not. Boxing isnt having great fights on free tvthat explains your low ratings. There numbers are strong on premium networks which have a smaller audience. Boxing also doesnt have strong undercards like the UFC. If they did it would be ratings gold. lastly, Boxing doesnt have the press fawning over them talking about how huge they are and how they are the next big thing. UFC = FAD
D says
Haha. Fightbusiness you are such an idiot.
Boxing gets ten times more free press than the UFC ever has. ESPN knows there is too much interest to ignore it, but they do every thing they can to dismiss it. Even when they decided to have a show for mma, it came on at 1am. The press still believes it is taboo.
The UFC also does not put on big undercards anymore because they are having more fights these days. You exaggerate everything.
MMA is bigger right now in the US than boxing is.
God you are a moron.
D says
Leon, they were no.1 in their time slot in the 18-49 demo. FOX isn’t complaining.
BrainSmasher says
Lol the UFC goes and puts unknown fighters from new weight classes and draws good ratings and fight business calls that stacking the under card. This prelim will get over one million viewers and it was full of guys with one or two UFC fights. The UFC has a fan base and they have a better product and they build fighters better. That’s why they beat boxing.
BrainSmasher says
Also good point D about boxing coverage. When was the last time ESPN did round by round scoring for a UFC fight like they do big boxing fights? In fact I have watched ESPN all day Sunday and today and there was no mention of the UFC event. They completely ignored a sporting even that drew 2.5-3 million viewers. While they cover every single low rated baseball game and what Lebron and Manzel ate for breakfast. But they can hype the shit out of a hotdog eating contest. That’s ESPN for you.
LeonThePro says
Looks to me they tied with Dateline NBC, and the second half NBC pulled in 5 M + viewers wheras UFC had 2.2 M. Also CBS and ABC were partly showing re-runs…
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2014/07/27/tv-ratings-saturday-dateline-ufc-coverage-top-night-bad-teacher-series-finale-flat/286856/
I guess anyone can spin it in any direction. I thought by now there would be more viewers, not less.
Pink Pig says
Nobody likes the UFC or its pink faced leader
D says
They tied Leon. What is your point?
Everything you trolls do is exaggerate and grasp for any straw possible.
Give me an answer as to why FOX hasn’t bought out the UFC’s contract if they are so upset with the numbers?
You thought they would have more viewers with lower profile fights? Why would that make sense?
If they have another heavyweight title fight on the card, you would see the numbers go back up.
Logical says
The UFC experiment on Network TV has been mediocre to say the least. Anyone that thinks that these numbers are making the UFC & FOX happy has to be delusional or maybe even retarded. It’s not great, not terrible, just bleh. By no means do i think the UFC is a fad, but it is definitely not regarded as a real sport — It is a special type of entertainment for a niche audience that is slowly loosing interest.
D says
Another illogical post by logical.
Right, it is for a niche audience where they are generating close to 700m in revenue per year and they have dominated the ppv market share for the past 7.
BrainSmasher says
Once the woman’s divisions get up and running. There will be a more diverse demographic. It’s always been hard for a sport one this to command prime time network tv. But as more woman start to follow the sport. It will happen and we have already seen an increase. The larger numbers they will get. Which is why I say the UFC only goes up from here. Once you bring in more woman then more of the mainstream men will take notice again. It took the nfl a long time and a large conscious effort to appeal to woman. Now they pull in large numbers of viewers.
Saldathief says
PPV is a niche industry, boxing , wwe, and ufc, what else is on ppv? nothing! all 3 sports are niche sports with core fans and either you like it or you don’t. Women’s mma will never be anything, just like women’s boxing, women’s basketball womens anything except tennis. Why isnt there a womens NFL? answer no one would fucking watch it. It was sad when strike forces best fights on a lot of shows were the women, reason, the men sucked! Anytime a womens show is strong is because the men are slacking. Rousey’s bubble has busted with anything legitimate, if the UFC needs to sensationalize rousey then they have very very serious problems with its mens mma. Stay tuned for midget ufc
D says
No one wants to hear you thoughts Sal.
Saldathief says
Yea truth and reality will hurt a lot of ignorant people. Keep up the UFC Bullshit hype bahahahahaha D is a moron UFC robot bahaha
BrainSmasher says
Considering the UFC have only used a handful of woman so far and their level of popularity. I would say woman’s mma is already almost the biggest woman’s sport.
D says
Saldaqueef back in action for old man Arum. Spewing his bullshit propaganda. Sal, you don’t know shit about anything. You just make shit up and expect people to believe your fake figures.
LeonThePro says
@D you don’t have to resort to name calling anytime someone disagrees with your robotic defense of the UFC. It’s getting tiring, almost like you get paid to do it. I would like the UFC to succeed and am just being honest – I miss the days when I had friends to watch it with. The interest just isn’t there. You should take a listen to this recent podcast with Dave Meltzer, and if you were unbiased it would be hard to argue his take on the current climate of UFC ratings:
http://www.sherdog.com/radio/Rewind-Down-to-Business-with-Dave-Meltzer-3839
@BrainSmasher right now there is now WMMA, it’s just Ronda Rousey. If she got pregnant tomorrow, the division(s) would collapse like a stack of cards.
Diego says
Leon,
I agree 100%. I still watch and follow the sport religiously but most of the people I used to watch with don’t even know when there’s a show on anymore, much less who is fighting. Part of that is due to the volume of shows which makes it hard to keep track, part is due to so many divisions being in transition – meaning the big stars of yesteryear are not fighting regularly and new ones are still being groomed – but it feels like at least part is also casual fans losing interest because the novelty has worn off.
I don’t think the sport is declining in North America. I think it’s off from its peak, but has stabilized. There will be peaks and valleys from here based on the popularity of individual fighters (just like there will be in boxing), but we’re at the base level of popularity in the US. A few caveats: this is 100% speculation and only time will tell, and I’m speaking only about the US and Canada, there may be more room to grow overseas.
Pink Pig says
Of course the UFC is declining. You’d have to be a moron to think otherwise.
That’s like being oblivious of the housing market debacle and still stating that the real estate market is healthy.
Lower lows and lower highs aren’t an indication of stabilization.
BrainSmasher says
Leon,
You are wrong. Rousey is the face because the UFC made her the face. Did you not see the pub she got when the UFC signed her before ever fighting in the UFC ? Her popularity tripled. The UFC gives who ever is their champ credibility. They could have done the same or better when Gina was on top. Even Misha would be huge as champ. Rousey isn’t the only girl who is marketable.
D says
Leon, I resort to name calling when idiots who lie and exaggerate while trolling mma websites.
Talk about robotic. You repeat the same non sense every time you post. You fabricate figures just to diminish the UFC and the sport. You are also lying, your motivations are obvious.
D says
Also, Leon, you cherry pick statistics to no avail. You are taking a 7 month period and are dismissing everything that happened prior to that as if things like this never slow down a bit in business. By the way, the numbers aren’t drastically down as you claim.
D says
Pink Pig/Sampson/Topps, still rolling around in his own shit.
Pink Pig says
The numbers aren’t drastically down??? An ahahahahahaha.
Compare ratings when UFCaca was on Spike. Compare PPV average buyrate to 5 years ago. Everything is cut in LESS than half shit for brains.
D says
Pink pig, still rolling around in his own shit. He can’t add apparently.
Pink Pig says
Spike era = 2 million average
Fox sports 1 era = 500,000 average
🙂
D says
Pink Pig….Desperate!!! He’s a sinking ship!!! Look at him squeal!!! Hahaha!!!
Diego says
Pink Pig,
The numbers are off from their peak, but they are not still in decline. It feels like things have stabilized. For the record, the real estate market has also stabilized and has been bouncing back for the last two years.